all of those things he'd be a libertarian.

...which is why hell would freeze over.

"If you make something illegal that people want, they're just gonna' do it anyway, so we need to find ways to help people do what they want to do legally."

It's not always the case that people are going to be able to do illegal things. If you're looking at the case of gay marriage, for example, the aspects of the term "marriage" that the government *is* able to define (licenses, tax structure, and other such beauraucratic policies) is very difficult to circumvent. You need to play by the rules to obtain legal recognition for a marriage, so people will have a hard time getting around legal restrictions on the process. Whether that's going to stop gay people from having relationships which are functionally similar to marriage is a different question, of course.

Yeah, yeah. All generalizations break down under scrutiny. But you get the point, yes?

This applies to illegal media downloads. People want to do something, the situation of the day allows it, they do it. If I want DVD commentary I'll damn well buy the DVD. If I want to watch a broadcast quality version of Lost or BSG on my computer then kudos to me if I find a torrent. If I want an entire album of music by someone in premium quality encoding I'll go out and buy a high definition CD with commentary and 5.1 channels. If I want a broadcast quality single I'll download it off the internet.

Note that some of what I'm willing to pay for doesn't exist. There is no added value for CD's at the moment. Thus, there is no impetus for me to buy them when I can get a broadcast quality version on the internet in 20 seconds.

Anyway, I'm making generalizations and twisting this post to suit my own purposes. That's how it goes though.

yea, wow, if he applied that quote to the war on drugs... or marijuana and legalized it, taxed it, took all the "criminals" out of jail for marijuana convictions, and then imagine all the money it would save... FREE THE GREEN!

I totally agree with legalizing most drugs but when you put a slogan like "FREE THE GREEN" at the end of an otherwise reasonable argument you lose a certain amount of credibility.

Yes, I understand and appreciate the point. I disagree with one of the cases you mentioned, but overall appreciate the inconsistency implied in his statement.

Marijuana is one of those things I really don't understand--I've seen people on it, and to me it seems that no rational person could find the effects positive. Impaired memory, poor coordination, and chemical dependancy? Why would the average person willingly choose these things?

My answer is that you're not rational when you're feeling the effects. Why would sane people drink a glass of wine with dinner? It's a toxin as well. What about people who like to smoke a cigar once a month? There are loads of toxins for you.

Bottom line is that there are many people whom I would call more gifted than I in the realm of rational thought (I'm talking scientists who get paid to think rationally) who enjoy the effects of a myriad of toxins, including, but not limited to, THC, nicotin, and alcohol.

Below bottom line, I would claim that most things that "feel good" are not rational.

Everything, even water, is bad for you in excess.

I think that many people are over analyzing this topic. The real question is not why people choose to do a thing. The real question is if other people have the right to tell you what you can and cannot do with your body.

Time and time again the government has restricted the activities of people because another group found those actvities to be offensive. Should other people have that right? Nobody is forcing people to use marijuana. Take alcohol for example. Nobody is forced to consume alcohol or be around people consuming it.

If you don't like drugs don't use them. But don't tell other people that they can't use them because you don't like them. That argument should be expanded far beyond drug policy.

What most people don't realize is that the Constitution protects your right to be offended. Here.

if i want to use drugs or swear in my own home and it offends anyone, who the fuck cares? I'm sorry, but that was a pointless add to this discussion

That was my point lavis88, everyone has the right to be offended by whatever I do in my own house. I'm sorry, but that was a pointless add to this discussion.

You could argue that from an economical point of view, society bears the burden of the ill effects of drugs (including alcohol and tobacco). Hence, it is in the interest of society to limit their use to an extent that will prevent otherwise productive citizens from becoming unproductive and ultimately incurring costs for medical treatment of the negative effects on said citizens' health.

If you take on a more altruistic view and see the role of society as ensuring the greatest possible quality of life of its citizens, it also makes sense. People who are dependent on drugs (assuming that this occurs) are seldom very happy. They live in constant fear of suffering the consequences of withdrawal, and the drug will thus take control of their lives. People who don't have any control over their own lives are generally miserable (which is why being incarcerated is considered a punishment).

If you're concerned with the people's right to security, freedom from assault, and safety of property, drugs are also a very bad idea, since crime is the quickest way to raise money for the next meth amphetamine hit.

The most difficult question is, then, how do you evaluate drugs to determine whether they should be deemed illegal or not? Which factors should be taken into consideration when weighing benefits against disadvantages of a drug? Well, recreational value is taken into consideration in the cases of alcohol and tobacco, which are both legal. I am quite certain that tobacco is more addictive than marijuana, and also more dangerous to an individual's health. However, one is a relatively benign stimulant, while the other is a moderate psychedelic, which make many users highly irrational. Alcohol, on the other hand, is a potent depressant, which may cause otherwise suppressed aggression to surface explosively, can render a person entirely unconscious, and can verifiably result in death in severe overdose situations. Then again, fatty fastfood kills more americans than any drug. How many oranges are equal to how many apples? There are simply no (objective) official quidelines today.